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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:02 am 
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Do any of you use Sitka spruce for the soundboards of your classicals? Or, have you tried using Sitka?
I know that European is most certainly the spruce of choice by the largest numbers, but I think I've read that Gilbert used Sitka, and probably some others of note.

Your thoughts or impressions would be welcome!

Thanks,
Steve

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:15 am 
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Steve,

My personal view - though probably a controversial one, is that Sitka (or Engelmann for that matter) will not have the complexity and beauty of tone that Euro spruce will. To me, using European Spruce could be the difference between making a "good" guitar and a "great" guitar.

With something as sensitive as a classical guitar, I really think that good wood is a great place to start.

Best wishes,
Joshuajfrench38607.5532060185

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:13 am 
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how does addi compare to the european spruce?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:35 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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The big enemy of classical guitar sound, IMO, is weight: you are trying to make the lightest possible top that will withstand the tension. There are two reasons for this:
1) the strings are under less tension, and so have less energy at a given amplitude, and
2) nylon just naturally 'eats' high frequencies. There is much less high-frequnecy energy in nylon strings than there is in steel, and you can't afford to waste any if you're going to have a 'crisp' sound. The key to high frequency response is acelleration: the top has to be able to respond quickly, and that means low weight. There are two major things to look at here (or, maybe, three, depending): density and stiffness (you can think of long-grain and cross-gran stiffness seperately).

Very generally, the long-grain stiffness of spruce will tend to scale with density. I just tested about twenty tops of various sorts, and the data points in a density-stiffness (Young's modulus) plot cluster around a line. There's a lot of spread, of course, but in general every type of spruce I checked, Sitka, Red, Englemann and Italian, was near the same line.

So, suppose you start with a Sitka top and a Euro one. Let's say the Sitka top is twice as dense as the Euro, and has a Young's modulus that's twice as high (which can happen). Bending stiffness goes as the Young's modulus and the _cube_ of the thickness. A given piece of wood twice as thick is eight times as stiff. To make the Sitka top the same _weight_ as the Euro one it will have to be half as thick, which would reduce the bending stiffness to 1/8 that of the Euro wood if they both had the same Young's modulus. Since the modulus of the Sita is twice as high it's going to be 2 X 1/8 as stiff, or 1/4: pretty floppy. So, all else equal, go for low density. This is why, in general, the denser woods like Sitka and Red don't get used as much for classicals.

Sitka has a couple of other things working against it. One is that, again in very general way, it has lower cross grain stiffness than Euro. I always look on cross grain stiffness as 'free': you don't have to add braces (or splay the fan more) on a piece with good cross stiffness.

Another peculiarity of Sitka is the way it absorbs sound. Most woods don't disspate much energy at low frequencies, but the amount of 'loss' rises as the frequnecy goes up, particularly above 2000 Hz. Sitka seems to have higher losses at low frequencies than most woods, and this loss _falls_ as you go up until, at 2kHz, it's about the same as other spruces, and it rises 'normally' after that. Nobody is quite sure why this is, or even if it's perhaps a problem with the measurement techniques. Still, it seems pretty consistent.

WOOD VARIES! If you've got a really light Sitka top that has high cross grain stiffness, then go for it. 'Bearclaw' adds some cross stiffness, but, of course, it mostly shows up on non-quartered wood. Still, if you can find a nice piece... BTW, the best way to know if you've got a nice piece is to measure. It's amazing how easily fooled your senses are.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:59 am 
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Mahogany
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Wood really does vary. I own a no-name spruce top guitar that I compare my efforts to (the goal is to surpass it) - but I have no idea what kind of spruce it is.
Recently, I got some cheap tops to practice finishing and two of the ugliest have turned-out especially light and stiff. These ARE sitka and I just HAVE to try one as a classical top. I wonder how thin you can go before the stiffness disappears? (and- can bracing save one's butt? - if you go too far) I keep picking them up and tapping them but that's as far as I've gotten so far - these are busy times!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:40 am 
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Thanks for the input, guys.
Al-- your post is food for thought, as always.
As for your comment that "wood varies", it certainly does. I conducted an interesting experiment--to me--regarding brace stiffness. I tested a batch at 3/4" height, then shaved them down to 11/16" and retested. (I know you classical guys don't use fractions OR inches, but bear with me.) I expected a drop in stiffness in relation to the cube of the material removed. It sort of happened. Actually, it happened only when the results were averaged out. What I found was that some braces remained stiffer than expected, and some showed more loss in stiffness than the cube of the material removed would indicate. The ones that retained more strength than the others, as expressed in a percentage of loss, are turned into scalloped X braces. (I hope this makes sense.)
I ran this theory by a forestry professor here at our university, and he said, "Yeah, that's wood for you."

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:18 am 
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Al,

Your post was very interesting. How does Engleman spruce compare with Sitka and European? The reason I'm asking is because I'm in the process of making my second classical and have chosen Engleman as the top wood and after reading your post I'm glad that I didn't choose Sitka. I'm thinking I might be better off saving the Engleman for a future steel string guitar. Is this a good idea or am I crazy?

Thanks

Graham


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:22 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Grit Laskin uses Sitka on his tops.I have never heard one, but he is undeniably one of the "best" luthiers on the planet.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:44 am 
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I enjoyed reading Alan's post (as usual), but I also thought I'd offer my personal experience to this. So far, I've built spruce-topped classicals using Euro, sitka, and "kermodie" (a hybrid of sitka, Engelmann, and white spruce, which is found in a small area of western British Columbia).

My personal impressions are that the kermodie spruce has sound characteristics very similar to Euro. Regarding sitka, the single guitar I built using it as a top came out sounding very nice. But this was an exceptionally stiff piece of sitka with very tight grain and very high cross grain stiffness. The only other sets of sitka I have that are this stiff are a couple of sets of bearclaw.

So because this set was so stiff, I thinned it down a lot -- like to 0.080" and even less on the edges. I used a radial fan bracing system of my own design, which I'm sure had some effect. So I do believe that, if you have the right piece of sitka, it can work well.

Best,

Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:51 am 
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IIRC, Englemann averages a little less dense than Euro, with the stiffness correspondingly lower. If you work out a 'figure of merit' that takes density and stiffness into account to predict which piece would make the lighter top they are much the same.

Once again, this is based on a limited sample, so don't put too much trust in it. More importatntly, if you get a nice light stiff piece of Sitka, go for it!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:14 am 
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It is not that it is not possible to make a classical with a Sitka top that sounds good...John Gilbert did and with very good results. But for most classical guitars Sitka and Adirondack are not good for the very reasons that make them great for big flatpicking, strumming guitars.

For those kinds of guitars, the density of the tops add both durability and "headroom" that are not as much an issue on a classical guitar that is fingerpicked. One of the reasons that so few great Flamenco's last compared to classicals by the same builders is the punishment that a Flamenco guitar takes over its life of playing for an instrument that is built even lighter than a classical....in most cases that just get played to death.

A classical guitar needs as light and resonant a top as possible. Several builders such as Smallman are using Padouk and other woods for bridges, just to get the weight below that of rosewood or ebony.

Alan is right on target in that it is a delicate balancing act between density and stiffness. If you had a top that regardless of what species it was, was light and stiff, then it would do well for a classical. That is why many classical builders are now building with Western Red Cedar or Redwood for tops...they combine very low weight with good stiffness.

Having said that I did build a flamenco once from a Sitka set that was very light for Sitka amd it sounded quite good. I was trying to see if the falloff in decay and brightness in sound wanted for a good Flamenco could be achieved with Sitka. While the perspn I built it for really likes it, to me it also lacked the range of tonal color that I would get from a Euro spruce top. That and the flamenco market was trending toward Flamenco Negra's so I went back to Euro tops.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:05 am 
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Thanks mucho, guys! It's just grand to be able to get response like this.

Steve

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:39 am 
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All this talk about stiffness and density has me wondering how you guys determine if a spruce top is considered stiff or not. Last night while looking at my engleman top I gave it a few flexes to see if it seemed stiff, but I realized that I don't have any other experiences to compare it to.

Is this a skill that you develope over time with experience or is there some way to actually measure the stiffness of a top?

Thanks

Graham


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:15 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Hi Snagproof

It is a bit of a feel thing, and realitive stiffness varies per species, you best bet if you have a wood dealer near by is to visit them, and get them to give you tops of various grades and flexibility, to try.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:16 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I should have mentioned, Feel is the way I do it, but some of these guys are far more scientific, and have develop test jigs to test stifness.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:10 am 
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Graham,
Here's a picture of how one of the LINT members goes about testing his tops' stiffness:



Hope that sheds some light. You can put any weight (within reason) next to the dial gauge--just be consistent--use the same weight for all your tests. Then you will have a data base of info to compare all your tops to.

Steve

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:17 am 
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Hey Steve,

That's really cool. I'll have to give that a try.

Thanks!

Graham


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:36 am 
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Or you could train your cat to sit on it. That would give consistent data as well. It could also do a sctatch test of the top while it was there

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:47 am 
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Dave

As long as you ensured your cat didn't eat more than usual, or it might distort the data

Mind you one of my cats is so fat he would break the tops.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:01 am 
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Russell,

But the ones that he didn't break would be the "great ones" though. Great lateral stifness - or should that be "cateral" stiffness! Makes a change from boring old Young's Modulus!

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De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:32 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Nice one Dave


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:53 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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David Hurd goes into deflection testing in exhaustive detail in his 'Left Brain Lutherie' book. More than you ever thought you'd want to know....

I tested my tops using my handy signal generator. I stuck a little rare earth magnet onto one end of a top half blank and put it up on pads. A coil from an old relay hooked to the sig-gen drives the magnet. I found the lowest lengthwise and crosswise bending mode frequencies and the half power band widths. The frequency, along with the size and weight of the piece gives you the Young's modulus, and the bandwidth tells you the damping factor; how much enegy is being dissipated in the wood.

Theoretically you could get the same information from the 'tap tones' by simply recording them, and using a Fourier Transform to look at the spectrum. This gives you the peak frequencies and band widths, and all you need then are the dimensions and the weight. None of these measuremnts is 100% accurate, of course, but they can give you a useful means of comparison.

The proof of the pudding, of course.... We can spout theory all day, but what matters is the way the guitar sounds. Basically the idea is to build instruments for a while using wood that you've measured, and then see if there is any correlation. In theory two tops of different woods that measure the same should sound the same. Do they? There's only one way to find out! If they don't, then either the build quality is not well controlled or there's something we don't understand yet.     


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